I am testing a new feature called the Caedes Art Council. The idea is to take some of the work off the Senate members by allowing more members to decide which images are good enough to include in the "permanent" galleries. The official description of the council is here. Please include any comments, questions, or concerns in this thread.

Small typo: "current" should read "currently"

Initially, the council will be people who have images in the permanent galleries. We may want to refine it later.

I think that's a grand idea. I know I've learned bigtime from some of the people who have been on here a long time, and who have shared a lot of photography knowledge and been real helpful. It will for sure take some of the load off the ones who are in the Senate now. I think it will also give a lot more appreciation for the types of postings that are voted on, and the score to give them. I like the idea of this very much. Verena

Great idea it not only lighten the work load for the senate but also a more variety of people's opinion

Sounds like a really good idea that will ease the work-load on The Senate members and will bring a new perspective to the Permanent Galleries.

Perhaps sometime down the track we could use a similar system to "spring clean" images from the perms that no longer meet the grade... IMO just as important as adding to it...

Great idea. Let's give it a try!

I think I might be alone in this but... First off I appreciate the time that people spend running this site and I would be the last to complain about the work that they do, which seems impartial and well thought through. What worries me about this scheme is that it will create the ability for a small group of people to have a large influence, much as they have in other areas of this site, to the detriment of those artists who are outside of this group. We see the effect in the contest topics and the shouting down of any who dare to dissent, and of course the c-index. Since it would be the same people who create the c-index that would now vote on who gets in the permanent galleries I doubt that many of my images currently in the permanent galleries would ever have got there. Perhaps asking some more people to join the senate would help ease the workload of individual senate members.

I am very much in favor of the idea, as well as the suggestion made by Sam. I think it will not only shed new light and appreciation for all that the Senate members do, but, also open up a more active role and participation for all members, that can only (to my eyes) strengthen the Caedes community. Only one question comes to mind at the moment, and that would be; will there be an option for a member to "opt-out" of the Art Council? And, I presume you are referring to "all" members and not just the Cadre.

We will have an opt-out feature.

So Art Council members vote on images for approval in the permanent galleries. And this isn't a separate category on Caedes for images that are considered "artsy" (whatever that means, one guesses in the opinion of any given Art Council member), but may not have great utility as a desktop (example: too small). May I suppose that images selected for nomination may not be of high CI ratings, but are still considered of high quality by those who nominate? Thanks for any clarification that may follow.

will council members be able to nominate an image at any point? for instance, they see a new upload that is of exceptional quality and nominate it but even if it is accepted it wont be moved until the usual minimum time period has expired?

So about how many people are included to begin with? If it includes everyone who has one image in a permanent gallery, I wouldn't think it would be that small a group.

i felt comfortable thinking that photographs would be evaluated for the perms after 30 days. i have gotten some photos to vote on that are 10 days old. my concern is the buddy thing. it seems like group dynamics will rule this plan. if one isn't part of a "group" (let's call it) they will be less likely to be nominated. if that is so can one nominate his or her work?

Well I have nominated some images, ones I came across when voting that seemed to have a little something extra to them, and I have voted on an image. So far so good. I would like to suggest that when an image is nominated, the reason for nomination is stated and that the reason can be seen by people voting on the image. That way one would get a better understanding of why an image was up for nomination. It would also show up those images that might be there just because its 'one a friend posted' as Jeenie has indicated.

I agree with Chris' suggestion regarding the "why" of the nomination - this seems to me to be of particular importance for fractal artists and other than photography nominations. I may know the principals behind a good photograph but I know what I like in other art but that may not necessarily be what makes a fractal outstanding. I do think this is a very good idea to try out. Thanks.
Kathy

I'm a bit out of the loop here, hard to keep track of all the new stuff lol, but it sounds good to me...

If the images voted on are anonymous (like in the voting booth) and at least a few months old I think the buddy thing will be partially slowed down. We could also have a rotation system where the group of voters change every month for example, less abuse this way I think.

A system for spring cleaning images is a good idea too but I think we should first encourage the members to do it themselves. I don't want to open up a debate here but members do needs to be a bit more self-critical of their work (myself included of course). Because your perception change, your tastes changes... all the image here, all the inspiration, you take it all in, day after day and week after week. And your own images, your own style simply evolve. It's natural. And the image you made three or four or five years ago is now there to remind you how much you've grown... But then after a while you don't need the reminder anymore.

Just my two cents (in a long while I know ;) ).

And why is it the voting booth scores don't serve this purpose now? Sorry for the newb Q. Just trying to get the gist here.

--Thierry

Jeenie: The main reason for having a time requirement before promoting images was that images used to be moved from the "New Images" gallery when they were promoted, however my understanding is that this would no longer be the case when the new system is in place, instead the "status" would change (a bit like how archived images work now - the gallery is not changed when an image is archived).

Everyone should also keep in mind that this council is only in the testing stage at the moment. After a few weeks/months we should all have a better idea of what is working and what needs tweaking.

i'm still wondering if someone can nominate one of his or her photographs for placement in the perms. i really feel that the relationships that have been nurtured on the site will make nominations less objective.

I agree with you Jen. There's so many that are friends on here who might be a bit prejudice. I think it should go back the way it was. Someone who doesn't know the person personally should be putting things in permanent galleries. Its bad enough with the voting! My scores have gone down drastically and its not because my works are getting of poor quality. So many people don't like fractals so they vote low on them. And with this new system it'll be the same way.

Wondering if an image can be nominated again if it is rejected the first time?

Joanie: It should be noted that since the mods have been on this site a long time they probably do know many of the people whose images they are promoting...

There are many people at go unnoticed, an very few friends( Me for one) that may have a say now..And most of my work posted is not voted on, simple discouragement. It could get better, an hopefully so, Ive just seen this today an wondering about it?

I've made a point of going through the new images looking for candidate image to put forward. I've even looked at the permanent galleries to see if they add something or not. I hope this is what is expected of me. I don't think people should be able to put forward their own images and I have refrained from doing so. If people take this new task seriously and do not abuse it, it should work well and the increased numbers of people looking and voting should give us a more dynamic and varied permanent gallery. I just hope it works.

One thing that is coming to light pretty quickly is that possibly not enough consideration is being given to selections - had some selections come through that quality wise wouldn't normally make the cut at all and even a really bad internet rip that had slipped through the net - still at least it meant we caught it in the end :-)

It isn't the councils job to spot rips though...

no but if you were giving an image consideration before nominating it you may become suspicious of it being a rip in the process :-)

Perhaps some guidelines from the old hands would help matters.

yes - rip spotting guidelines would be a good idea

Personally, I take inclusion in the Art Council as an honor and a responsibility to be as up-front as possible when it comes to voting on selections. I set standards for my professional life long ago, that I follow here at Caedes, as a matter of self-control. 1) I do my best to keep an open mind when viewing an image, to understand the time and effort that went into it, be it a photograph or digitally-constructed image. 2) I don't question whether an image might be ripped (unless it's painfully obvious [a Christmas postcard I created in 2008 was photographed and uploaded to Flickr - they didn't even bother to remove the "Season's Greetings" text on the front, or the reflection of their flash!]), preferring to believe in the basic honesty of our membership. 3) My vote is based first on the image's technical qualifications, rather than on it's "calendar-perfect" appearance. A lovely landscape is nice, but it should be level, have proper balance and composition, focus, color, and so on. These factors, however, can be overridden by an image of unique character — the world is not composed solely of perfect sunflower fields. 4) Although the friends I have at Caedes are exceptional, these friends know that I "speak" exactly what I think, and that I would never vote favorably on an image of theirs simply because I recognize it as theirs. I'd be more likely to abstain from voting on an image I recognize. And 5), nominating an image of mine isn't the last thing I would do... it's one of the things I would never do. I'm not claiming perfection in my own work, but those of us with more experience and training should be willing and able to be impartial, and to assist anyone in learning more about their craft so they can get more enjoyment out of it. After all, isn't that one of the reasons for this site's existence? But getting past all my blathering here, what an uncle of mine would call having a tongue longer than a wet well rope, guidelines for voting would be nice as well as the process of image nomination (or did I miss that when I left the room for a sandwich?).

-Nikoneer

I may have missed something - I have been browsing the new images and two that I would have liked to nominate do not have the Art Council button visible. Am I correct in thinking this is because they have already been selected by someone else or is there another reason ?
How many images are we allowed to nominate? I have clicked on two but not sure if both worked as I only saw the confirmation for one.

Spotting rip guidelines could be helpful but if the image has already got through the image mod's selection process I think it is unklikely that inexperienced members would find them easy to identify. The same consideration is (in theory) given to images at voting time and I suppose that this is the way rips are spotted - the more people scrutinising the more likelyhood of rips being weeded out.

Is it possible to remove the nomination button from artists own images? I do not think it is right that own images can be nominated.

I have to disagree with this 'group' unfairness thing. It is inevitable that images favoured by individuals will be biased in the direction of those on their friends list because that is why they are on the 'friend' list - because their work is admired and liked. There must surely be enough 'groups' to balance this out and I believe that most of us have enough discretion and integrity to consider each image on its own merits rather than whether we personaly favour it or its creator is on a list.

BTW I think the whole thing is a great idea:)I also like the suggestion that artists will be notified if a work is made permanent. We would not be human if that honour did not bring satisfaction and to get a notification and congratulation would be very nice.

I think I now understand that the images without the AC button have already been nominated 11 times?

As I understood it the image is nominated by one member of the council and then 11 members are asked to vote whether or not it goes in the permanent galleries. I do think we should not be allowed to nominate our own images simply as a matter of integrity. I also take this very seriously and greatly appreciate the honor and hope to learn even more as the process proceeds. Any kind of guidlines are always useful.

So once an image has been nominated the Arts Council button disappears from it?

I do think this is an idea at least worth a try. I would say that we should not be allowed to elect one of our own works. I also hope that those on the art council be fair and objective, and not let friends images influence them.

Woo Hooo! I am in the "ART COUNCIL" I think its a real honor and I thank you very much! I think this is such a good idea. I have heard people getting upset when all of their images get archived and I think this will help in inclusion and make people feel better. It is a very hard thing to get into the permanent collection but giving more people a chance by a vote is a big step in the right direction. I am all for it so far.

Lye: The button only appears on images which you can nominate. This could be because one is not in the art council or because the image has already been nominated. Images cannot be nominated more than once.

I'll be removing the "Art Council" button of each artist's own works.

I have many close friends on this website. But, when it comes to judging pictures either in the VB or for anything else-that is when I have no friends. Either the image is good or it has problems and I judge it accordingly. I think the Art Council is a great idea. I think it should be a lot more selective in membership than what it appears to be at this time. I think only people from the Caedes Cadre (paying) should be on it as well as those who have been around awhile, as well as those who have demonstrated some photographic expertise in what they post. Momma (Pat)

Pat, the key to its success I think will definitely not be restricting it to just 'established' photographers but having a balance between new and old talent here in all mediums.

Another issue that seems to have come to light is people going through particular artists (presumably their friends or favourites) back catalogues to resurrect old archived images. As I understand it this absolutely isn't the purpose of the council rather to select new images that have been uploaded recently.

Phil, I have received several older images come my way for nomination. Without any guidelines, I too, thought that any image with an "art council" button was eligible for nomination. If this is not so, should we be abstaining from voting on older images? If so, what would be the cut off period... anything older than... (?)

I had an 'art council' this morning from two pictures that were posted yesterday June the 3th, methinks that's wayyyyyy to early.

Methinks it's better to set off a periode of 4 or 5 weeks before the button 'art council' will be on the pictures page.
Or some guidelines to make it easier for every one.
And if the picture is already nominated how will we know? Will there be a sign in front of the button like '-art council' like it is when you faved a picture?

Just some thoughts :o)

I think the art council button appears by default on all images at the moment but you will only be asked for approval if another council member has gone into the archives and selected it. for me, if an image has already been archived for whatever reason, then its had its day and that should be that.

if a picture is already nominated - the art council button does not appear on it any more I think

If it takes the stress and strain off the heirarchy, it's a good thing...

The difficulty with waiting is that you then have to go looking for old pictures. Personally I am looking at new stuff coming in and putting up ones that I think should be permed. If I wait, then I would have to go back through the last 100 pages of the new images gallery looking for things. Doing it immediately is much easier. Also, if an image has an immediate impact it is most likely to get permed anyway. I do feel some images grow on you but I am not sure how to deal with this. Perhaps a reverse date order button on the new images gallery might solve the problem?

'I would have to go back through the last 100 pages of the new images gallery looking for things'

welcome to our world :-)

"Lyn: The button only appears on images which you can nominate. This could be because one is not in the art council or because the image has already been nominated. Images cannot be nominated more than once."


Thank you :) I do see it on most images so I must be on the AC :)
Could it be clarified if there is a limit on the number of nominations one can make in a specified time?
I think it would be a good idea if there was - it would make people more discerning in making a nomination and prevent the mods being flooded with nominations. I would favour a very low number of permitted nominations per person.

I don't think we should be going back through old images. This is a new program and should apply to newly posted images.

I understand why images get their 30 days in the new images gallery, so that everyone gets some exposure no matter what. However, is there a reason why outstanding images cannot be permed sooner? It would make the permanent galleries more dynamic and perhaps attract repeat business more.

I have not nominated anything yet (just dipping toe in water and looking around!) but my thought on older images is that many are essentially 'new' as well, in that they have not had all that much exposure. I suspect I've not seen even a fraction of what is on the site. That's one reason why I like browsing other people's 'favourites', as it's a way of finding artists and images I would not have noticed otherwise.

When you consider how many members this site has and how many images are involved, who's to say what's truly "old" or "new?" I'm constantly seeing images on the home page that I've never seen before, with submission dates as old as 2005. (I've been a member, off and on, since 2006.) These images are often stunners and, if not in the permanent gallery, should at least be considered for that honor.

I have a question I'm sure one of you can answer. The c-index being the disappointment that it is, if images are submitted with the voting feature turned off, what is the likelihood of them eventually being considered by the Art Council?

-Nik

If I remember correctly, there are generally two "new" images and one "old" one displayed on the home page. The new ones would be the ones still in the "new images" gallery, that haven't been permed or archived yet.

I wouldn't think the C-Index or lack thereof would have much effect. It's just a matter of someone noticing your image in the "new images" gallery, though it might get a little more exposure if it showed up in the voting booth as well.

But I'm certainly not an authority on any of this!

This has been a long time coming and is a most welcome addition..R.

I think that an art council is a great idea on here and I welcome the new change. The only thing I like is if a member of the "Council" votes, you will be able to see how many votes an image has or if they got accepted into being part of the "permanent" galleries.

I did already mention this but maybe some people missed it: once the new system is finalised images won't be "moved" from the new images gallery to the permenant ones. The status of the image will change but there will not be seperate galleries like there are now. This means that when an image is promoted it won't disappear from the new images, which is the main reason for not promoting imahes quickly at the moment. Therefore there isn't any reason images can't be promoted straight away.

A few people have mentioned the c-index; c-index is not a factor in promoting images and never has been.

Good to know... thanks Sam.

Just a suggestion.. I see a few people are worried about "the little friends groups" that are around making the council a bit biased.. Maybe the viewing of the images to be chosen can be like the voting booth where you don't see who the artist is or see the C-Index or the comments..

However... I think most people who are selected to be on the council should be unbiased and be able to look at an image and give their opinion without thinking of it as their "friends" work, I know I do even in the voting booth.. If I think a piece of work from someone I know doesn't cut it I give the rating for what it's worth.. how else will they improve or correct the image? Sometimes you just have to be cruel to be kind ;)

Yes, I think people need to learn to be mature enough to make an unbiased decision... if you feel you can't then just use the "abstain" button...

@ Chris(Coram9) You said...

If I wait, then I would have to go back through the last 100 pages of the new images gallery looking for things....

Why don't you fav that picture if you want to nominate it in the future, it's easier to find it back in your own favs!

Just a thought here :o)

@twinkle. Given Sam's comment above, I could also just nominate them when I see them, which seems acceptable, and save myself all the trouble.

Just spotted another typo: In the voting notifications, "premanent" should read "permanent".

I've been reading through all the posts and maybe I have missed it somewhere above...Couple of questions (1) If I use the "abstain" button, am I abstaining from being on the Art Council or am I abstaining from voting on that particular image? (2) If an image has already been archived, then should the Art Council button available for those images? Like I said......maybe I missed it somewhere above, and if so, I'm sorry for the repeat.

I stopped in just in time to witness this new feature called the Art Council and I very much like the idea. It lightens the load for the mods and may even get images into the galleries more quickly. I think that it will be a fair deal because our images will be judged by our peers. Hopefully, all are grown up enough to vote based on the merits of an image and not just by friendships. Since this is an anonymous procedure, I don't see that as a problem. The responsibility of making the choices for gallery admission will give the members a greater sense of belonging to the site and wanting to see it remain successful by selecting only the best images for the permanent (semi=permanent) galleries.

"abstain" just means you abstain from voting on that image. I presume it then goes to someone else (much like a comment request when you decline to comment).

I think this is a great idea. I take abstain to mean if you have a friend's photo or one of your own, you abstain from voting. I would think that everyone would be honorable enough to do this. While I'm just an amateur photographer, I love seeing some of the fantastic captures on this site. Being able to vote on what I see as great is just my opinion, but the truth should come out in the voting. I just feel privileged to have some shots on the permanent viewing site.

Will do my best for you with this. A couple of thoughts:

I'd vote differently if I could nominate only so many perms... like 20 a month or whatever. If what you want to do is perm only the best of the best, setting a limit might help. One percent of the average incoming in a month would seem like a good number. The downside might be too few images collecting a total of 11 votes, though, I guess.

UPDATE: Ah, I now find there's a limit of 10 referrals in a 24-hour period. Ducky. But I won't be able to return to the task reliably or at the point where I left of now or in the future given how my life goes, so I'm at a loss and resolving to leave the task to others. Will leave this msg. up, though. Ciao, my friends.

At the risk of triggering all that howling again, can we reconsider tightening up the requirements for pix making it into "New"? Yes, I realize my stuff might get rejected, too, but as the percentage of overexposed foof and underexposed cats rises, the viability of this site, with or without an Art Council, diminishes. Going through 2100 pix (roughly May's haul) to rec perms really brings home how lax the current standards are.

Best of luck with it all, however this goes, and thanks so much for continuing to invest so much of your time and skill in this site. It's unique on the web and an incredible resource.

In principle it is an excellent idea. It will certainly make the process more democratic. Like E. M. Forster, I agree, democracy may have its shortcomings, but it's still far superior to any alternatives. Anything than can, at least, diminish elitist cronyism, or the power of those who think they can 'buy their way' to the top is to be applauded.

Even though I'm 60 years old, I would like to see more younger people attracted to Caedes. Innovation, experimentation and an undeferential enthusiasm are what are needed. An art form that refuses to evolve is one that will surely die. And I'd hate for Caedes to become the graveyard of photography.

Pixleslie: There has been a method put forward that should reduce the amount of time poor quality, snapshot type shots spend on the site before being archived (at the moment it is completely manual which can make it difficult to keep continuous tabs on). I think most of these types of images are fairly promptly moved to the "community" galleries at present. Perhaps the issue is the way most people tend to view new images, ie in the "New Images" gallery sorted by date; which means of course that the images they are going to see are going to include said snapshots... maybe that's an issue we can look at after the council and the new "status" system is fully sorted out.

I had 17 art council promotions on my list today of them only 1 or 2 I would ever normally consider for permanent promotion - some extremely poor choices which I'm guessing are just friend driven.

Like Phil I had several art council promotions and out of all of them I voted only one through for the permanent gallery. Some of these images I cannot fathom being in the permanent gallery! I see that as a slight drawback to this system. Friends are going to promote their friend pictures no matter what they look like!

Like you guys.....I too have had some friends images come up for vote.....I voted on one and then I have decided that the abstain button would be best served on my part when a friends image comes up for vote. I rather let that decision be in someone else hands.

I've already seen several nominations come up that I recognize as friends, only one of which I voted yes on, simply because it's an exceptional image, and not because of who submitted it. Two others I voted no on and another I abstained from voting. I think it best that we just concern ourselves with how we ourselves vote, there being no way or sense in trying to control how others vote. Granted, there will be members who try to push their friends' work through, but if we vote positively for only the images that merit it, then we've done our jobs. Until Caedes comes up with something foolproof, I suspect this will all come out in the wash.

For some reason, my previous post was duplicated...

no - you are right, there should be no reason why you shouldn't vote on a friend image positively if it is as an exceptional piece. sadly though that doesn't appear to be happening. I cant fathom if its purely a 'treacle club rides again' scenario, people just not even taking any real time to consider an images qualities before nominating it or a combination of the two.

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that could be the reason that some of the nominated images do not seem like perm material but it would be hoped that the voting system in place will counteract this. Each time I have felt obliged to click 'no' part of me has felt bad but like others there have been some that I have been at a loss to understand how they got there and what the nominator saw as special about it even after viewing it several times.I have voted positively for a very small number.
Recovering from eye surgery at present but even with my impaired vision it seemed reasonably easy to spot the truly deserving ones.
I do not feel I must abstain from nominating a friend's image if I consider it outstanding. Nor abstain from voting on an image of a friend, should one come up, as I have enough faith in my own judgement (and integrity) to vote fairly.

I have abstained a couple of times simpy because I could not decide :)

Ditto, LynEve.

Lyn - I wasn't really commenting on an images aesthetic - more on very poorly executed images from any and every aspect be it creative or technical that have clearly only been nominated because of the artist who created them. More worrying - 'some' doesn't come into play here - try 'most'.

I still look at it this way, I post my pictures and I get comments which is great! I am hoping that my images will brighten somebodies day. If my image even makes it to the permanent gallery that is an honor not a privilege. I will still have my friends before and after I vote yes or no. I expect the same from them. Thats the way it should be.

:::sneaks back in with her Emily Latella sweater over her head:::

So... ummm... anyway, I just found the Art Council thingy on the left side of the screen and realized I don't have to look at all 2100 pix from the month, et oopscetera. So... ummm... cool. I'm getting with the program.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Lyn - I wasn't really commenting on an images aesthetic - more on very poorly executed images from any and every aspect be it creative or technical that have clearly only been nominated because of the artist who created them. More worrying - 'some' doesn't come into play here - try 'most'. "

+philcUK - I will concede to 'most' :)

Not so sure about the 'clarity' of an image having been nominated purely by virtue of its creator.
I browsed through the new images today, initially just looking at thumbnail versions. Any that took my eye I enlarged. Some did not stand up to closer scrutiny as candidates for nomination. I nominated 2 images. I can remember the creator of one (not on my friends list) but not the other.
Who they belong to has absolutley no bearing on my choices.

I have wondered if an alternative system would be to simply allow new images to be nominated for a designated period and if nominations reached a set number then the mods have the final say. Eliminate the voting procedure and the alledged favouritism that is involved. If say 10, or (preferably) more members nominate the same image then it must have something going for it and be worth consideration.
:)

I've had an image (Abstract Luminaries) recently promoted by the Art Council. In looking at my Control Panel today, it gives the indication of it being archived, and I don't find it in the "New Images" or "Main Galleries > Abstract" categories. However, I can view it in my gallery.

Lori, my understanding is the Art Council is still in the testing phase and not quite operational yet!

*caedes explained at the top of this thread that he is "testing a new feature".....

Hope this helps! :=)

I believe anytime you can get the members involved it is a good thing. Everyone has different tastes and we come from all parts of the world. Therefore each category will get their fair share of consideration.
Given the opportunity I still think the cream will rise to the top because of the integrity of the members who truly love this form of expression.
I for one will vote my conscience.

TicK

I was honored to be asked and every image I've voted on so far I've given an honest opionion of whether I felt it was artistic in nature and worthy of keeping or not. I don't look at whose work it is, if I knew it wouldn't make any difference.

For the most part, I don't think people on this network are going to vote for their friends images to be included just because they're friends, because nobody knows whose voting on their stuff so we don't feel like we're going to hurt a friend's feelings by being honest if we don't think the piece is worthy. There were a couple I abstained from only because I was on the fence about the artistic value. I figure I'll just let others determine that when I can't decide. This whole issue goes back to the arguments about voting in general, index ratings, etc. - it's all very subjective. Because my experience with Caedes members and visitors has shown me most are screen junkies and not serious photographers and artists (meaning few people on this network leave genuine constructive criticism, but rather give touchy/feely comments) I'm not sure any of the voting really means much.

I hope I haven't offended anyone in my comments, just speaking from my gut. BTW, I never want to miss an opportunity to share my thoughts about critique - if we're going to write anything, it should be of genuine value to help a member become a better photographer/artist.

If I have any opinion about who should be allowed to vote, I think it should be people who consistently give helpful critiques to others. If we're going to call it an Art Council, the members of the council should at least have an eye for art. K, enough blah blah from me.

Cyberhugs,
anne

"most are screen junkies and not serious photographers and artists"
Anne, I think that many would disagree with your thoughts on that. I believe there are very many serious photographers and artists here, and that a lot of them will belong to other sites where serious discussions are the main feature.
Caedes is a place to share work and provide 'desktop wallpaper' without the main focus being on technique etc. There is a lot of help given by more knowledgeable members both publicly and behind the scenes and many a member has been inspired and encouraged by the 'more serious artists' who are able and willing to share their experience and knowledge.
Less experienced members are still able to have an opinion about whether an image is pleasing and suitable for what its main purpose is - as a desktop image, without having to be a brain box full of technical expertise.
I agree with Tick's comment, the cream will rise to the top - regardless of who is in the voting pool, provided enought votes are required on each nomination. Those already on the experimental Art Council must have some idea of what constitiutes 'art' by virtue of the fact that they already have images selected for the permanent galleries.
I agree that there are a lot of 'touchy feely' comments - and that is for many reasons - lack of confidence in giving advice, advice not being welcomed, time issues.
I am very happy to know that someone has looked at and enjoyed anything I have posted, enough to leave a comment,even if it is just to say they like it. Just as I am delighted and helped by more serious observations and suggestions.
The Photography discussion forum, though not used to its full capacity is evidence that there are serious and real 'photographers' present. :)
:) :) :)
LE

(*reads posts thus far ...*)

... ...

(*nudges needle on broken record ...*)


It was ... erhm, skipping and repeating in parts.

:oP

"K, enough blah blah from me."

No, not enough, methinks. I, for one, like a good 'blah blah' ...


(*goes off to compose "Is Critique Dead? - Part VII" *)

/\ These are Lyn's favourite threads. Right, Lyn?

:oD

"These are Lyn's favourite threads. Right, Lyn?"

Not really, I just like the occassional cookies provided with them :)

Sorry, I will pipe down.
You did have a long respite during my many months of absence though !

Over and out . . . . .

Well, it would appear that now there is a new comment in town.

This one;

"I've nominated your photo/image!!"



And we all know what follows on the heels of these types of comments, correct?

... ...

... ...

I shall be referring any and all PMs/discussion threads to 'yous' ... that have at their roots, enquiries regarding;

'Why didn't my photo/image make it to the permanent galleries? Several people/members told me that my image had been nominated?'

"Despite a valiant effort, your image did not quite make it to the top of the hill and has been sent back for retraining."

"The little snapshot that couldn't?" (As opposed to a choo-choo that could?)

Personally, I don't see any harm in letting someone know you thought enough of their submission to nominate it, but only as a private PM to the artist, and not a posted comment that might influence others.

-Nik

Wow, just signed in today and saw 24 'Art Council' things; man I need to keep up with this site! I'm not sure about this idea, but it seems okay so far.

Jazz

First, let me say that I read most of the comments posted, but didn't have the time to read through them all, so I apologize if this has already been discussed.

I like the idea of the Art Council because, as others have said, it gives the Caedes members the opportunity to be actively involved in something they have invested their time and talents into. However - not to downplay any members - my concern is that the Senate has more of a discerning eye than a lot of the members on the site do, and aren't afraid of offending anyone by deciding what to get rid of and what to keep. I feel that many people have a "oh, that's a nice image" view without having the critique necessary to discern the difference between "nice" and "quality". I think this brings up an even bigger issue of people using Caedes as a personal photo album for their friends & families (I admit that I was guilty of this when I first started).

Members really should be more critical of the work they upload. Chances are that people do not want a photo of someone's family Christmas on their desktop, or an out-of-focus beach shot from their vacation. I am not opposed to people making friends and sharing art on Caedes, but there should really be a site-wide discussion about what is and isn't acceptable on an art website, versus what should be saved for Photobucket and e-mails.

I personally am not so worried about cliques or groups of people nominating images, because ultimately a lot more people vote on those images than the people in those potential groups anyway.

I also (yes, I'm writing more) think we should have an official "Spring Cleaning" week once a year where Caedes members really take a look at their galleries and sweep out what's collecting cobwebs... I for one just did some cleaning out of my own gallery. That alone would eliminate some of the Senate's workload and make a more discerning crowd of voters, coming full-circle and creating more professional and well-rounded art/desktop galleries.

The practice of collecting Art Council votes from members who have had one or more of their submissions selected for the permanent galleries should be (and is intended to be) indicative of those voters' capability in determining what constitutes a "quality" image. Not to disparage any of the Senate members or their expertise, but isn't it possible that ordinary members of this site have equal experience, knowledge, and good taste? I don't care for flash-washed snapshots of pets and cousins with bags on their heads either, but that doesn't necessarily discount all pet photos (I think we can safely draw the line at bag-wearing cousins, though).

-Nik

Boy, did Digital Angel say a mouthful! How to reduce EVERYONE'S workload? Clean out our galleries and be more selective about what we post. I don't usually post two images everyday because I don't have two images that are worth posting everyday. The trip to St Louis has enabled me to post two images a day for now but when they run out, I'll drop back to one most likely. Sometimes I don't post for a week or more. Again, good comments Digital Angel.

If we do clean out some of our galleries, which is a good idea, we need to be cognizant of which images have been made "favorites" by other members. I'm glad that the listing of favorites was added to our Caedes Control pages. From what I understand, if we remove an image that has been placed in another member's favorites file, when we pull it from our gallery it also disappears from that other member's file. I think if someone else enjoys our pieces that much, we should leave those particular images in.

-Nik

That won't work. Just about every image is somebody's favorite. We need to be....to be... (what was that big word he used...)
cognizant of weather or not it is in the Perm gallery.

I find it hard to believe everyone's work is someone's favorite (or perhaps it's just mine that isn't). I did a quick scan of my Caedes Control page, selecting the favorites column, and I see that just under half the 199 submissions in my gallery have been made favorites by someone. I'd bet if we each took a close look at our galleries, we'd find that not all are someone's favorites and, among those, we'd find images that really weren't our own favorites either, ones that we realize we could have done better. Of course, if we used the c-index as a guide, making the cut-off at, oh, say 65, we'd have little left in Caedes. (I'm not suggesting that, Pat, I'm just being facetious in the face of the dreaded c-index.) So I'm willing to weed out some of mine that no one really cares for. Anybody else?

-Nik

What's the point of weeding out your galleries? Once they're archived they shouldn't cause anyone more work, and they might demonstrate how you've improved (assuming your worst ones aren't the most recent!). When I see a new image I like, I often look through the person's gallery to see what else they've got that I might like.
My 4th image here got the most "favs" and a C-Index of 60 - and it's my least favorite. I've thought of deleting it, but just a couple weeks ago it got another comment saying it was "perfect in every way possible!" Oh well ... :-|

Nik -

I am not trying to discredit members who are eligible for the art council, so please don't misunderstand my intentions. I have known many members on Caedes since I was about 14 and respect their critiques and comments, but I do stand by what I said. There have been few who are willing to tell me the brutal truth about images that aren't up to par, but those are the comments that have helped me grow as an artist. The sad truth is, though, that many people on the site aren't as honest. I don't think it's beneficial to anyone to simply say, "Wow, that's great!", which is what I think the majority of people will inaudibly say when they vote "yes".

The reality is that Caedes is not a place to store and archive your past works, regardless of whether or not someone's favorited them. If someone absolutely cannot live without another person's image, they should ask the artist to sell them a print of the work or if they can print out their own copy to place on their wall, which to me is a much larger compliment than simply favoriting an image. Besides, I shouldn't feel guilty as an artist just because someone likes my image. One of the telling marks of any great artist is the ability to edit himself.

I also did not say that photos of family members (including pets) should not be posted on the website - my point was merely that people should only be uploading images that have a wider appeal than their circle of friends and family. If the photographs are well-composed, artistic, and of good quality (and by that I mean focus, grain, etc.), then I think they have every right to be posted on the website. These are the main criteria by which images should be judged and allowed into the permanent galleries, in my opinion.

I also believe, as previously stated, that new artists should definitely post their recent work on the site to receive critiques and learn how to better discern what is art and what is not; this would also help increase the quality of images being uploaded. I started uploading to Caedes at the age of 13, and I can tell you that none of the images from then are on here anymore, either because I have chosen to delete them or because the mods wisely decided to remove them from the site. I, for one, am glad they aren't here anymore because that alone is a form of critique.

I really am not trying to offend anyone, I was just being bluntly honest with my opinion.

Akeraios - there are certain images that artists have uploaded that should never be deleted because they are of the highest quality, but these are a very very very (very!) small group of images. I would not expect any of the images in my gallery to be archived here forever.

The point of weeding out our galleries is to free space for the server, plain and simple. This website is not a free site for the moderators and those who maintain it (thus the ability to donate money). The server only has so much capacity before having to be upgraded to allot space for incoming images, archived images, and increased site traffic. Images that are collecting dust in people's galleries take up space on these servers, perhaps needlessly.

As a way of archiving my work, I simply keep it in a folder in my desktop to "reflect" on it when I need to see that I'm actually improving on my skills. It's great if you want to reflect, but I don't think it's fair to do it on someone else's dollar, including the Cadre's.

Anyway, I digress from the topic at hand. If anyone wants to direct anything to me specifically (hate-mail, etc.), please private message me :)